In Conversation: Strategies to Accelerate Women's Opportunities in the Workplace

SHOW NOTES 

International Women's Day isn't country or organisation specific. It's a day of collective global activism and celebration that belongs to all those committed to forging women's equality. In recent years the narrative around International Women’s Day has changed though, with some arguing that it’s become ‘corporatised’ and ‘performative’ as to lose all meaning.  

Which is why in this week's episode of the Public Sector Podcast we've chosen to focus on the tangible – the strategies and transformations doing their part to drive action and change for women in the workforce.  

Our panel of female Executive level leaders share their experiences, insights and lessons in this special edition of the Public Sector Podcast. 

MEET THE PANEL   

TRANSCRIPT 

International Women’s Day 2024   

Strategies to Accelerate Women's Opportunities in the Workplace 

In Conversation With:  

• Melissa Martino, Executive Director of People and Innovation at the Magistrates Court of Victoria 

• Isabeau Korpel, Executive Director of People and Culture at the Department of Transport WA, and, 

• Sue-Ann Charlton, Executive Director of People and Performance at the Department of Human Services SA 

Monica:  

Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Public Sector Network Podcast. I am thrilled to be here in recognition of International Women's Day 2024, where we'll be celebrating and championing women in leadership and the initiatives inspiring inclusion.   

Joining me are three remarkable executives, each making significant strides in their respective fields. We have joining us:   

Isabeau Korpel, Executive Director of People and Culture at the Department of Transport WA,   

Sue-Ann Charlton, Executive Director of People and Performance at the Department of Human Services SA, and,   

Melissa Martino, Executive Director of People and Innovation at the Magistrates Court of Victoria.   

International Women's Day isn't country or organisation specific. It's a day of collective global activism and celebration that belongs to all those committed to forging women's equality. In recent years, a narrative around International Women's Day has changed, with some arguing that it's become corporatized and performative, so to lose all meaning. Which is why today we want to focus on the tangible, the strategies and the transformations doing their part to drive action and change for women in the workforce.   

The theme for International Women's Day this year, Invest in Women, Accelerate Progress, resonates deeply with us, and today we're here to explore how we can inspire inclusion through workplace cultures to support not only the women in our workplaces, but women as a whole to foster belonging, relevance, and empowerment. So let's dive into this important conversation together. Hello and welcome everyone.   

Sue-Ann, I might start with you today and kick off with a little bit about smashing those glass ceilings. So from your perspective, what are some of the biggest obstacles that women encounter when striving to progress in the workplace, particularly in male-dominated industries or executive roles, and what strategies have you found effective in overcoming them? 

Sue-Ann:  

I think probably for my personal career, I think the biggest challenge has been seeing the executive roles that tend to be available to women at the highest level have typically been in HR or what has traditionally been very female areas. And that's kind of been the token nod to having females on the executive is in the sort of female-specific type roles if you like. But for me personally, I've really focused on developing my skills and expertise around tech and innovation. I come from a financial services background, so very numbers-focused, and I think that has helped me to be not so pigeonholed or limited to the very few traditional female executive roles, but actually more broad in terms of the appeal. Having said that, my current role is very HR, IT, and innovation as well. So it's been a really good combination. I do think that fundamentally, leading people in a really positive way is the best skill of any leader, regardless of gender, and I think that's something that everyone should develop and be better at because we would have much stronger, better organizations as a result.  

Monica:   

People leadership is core, Isabella. I could see you nodding away there. Are there any moments where you've had to make a conscious choice in your career to stay in a world dominated by men?  

Isabeau:   

Absolutely. I work in the Department of Transport, so the transport industry is pretty male-dominated. And I think every day I still make a conscious decision of staying in this environment. I enjoy the transport industry because it makes a difference to people and that aligns with my purpose of wanting to make a difference for our community. On the other hand, I also feel that I sit in a space where being in the people and culture space is helpful for me to influence in the organization, to sit at a board level, and have those challenging conversations.   

I think one of the positive things in our organization is that diversity and inclusion is part of the conversation at the table. And as a senior executive, I can help to influence and shape some of the language that is being used in that environment. But every day you have the little, what we call the micro expressions. I hesitate to say aggression, but it's micro expressions that just come from the past. I was just looking at generational theory this morning and it's just how people grew up. It's what they know. So what we've got to do as women is speak up in that space and say, “Hey, it was OK or it was the language that we used at that stage. But in this stage, this is the language that we use now. And as a woman, this is my view”. So it does take a bit of courage, like Sue-Ann said, to speak up in those forums and to be seen as a partner at the table versus the token HR lady that will do the admin in the background and make sure everybody gets paid. So I think it's our own mindset that drives us forward and makes sure that we land some of the messaging really well at those executive and corporate tables.  

  
Monica:   

Lovely. I like that concept of being a partner at the table there and speaking up to get that place. Melissa, are there any strategies that you've found effective over the years?  

Melissa:   

Yes, and I think it goes back to what Sue-Ann said, and that's around leadership. I probably have been blessed, you know, on reflection in preparing for this, thinking about people that I've worked with and previous leaders that are supportive and willing. I had one former director who said, "It's time for you to go back to yourself and I'm unclipping your wings.” And I went back to myself and moved on into different roles. And these were male role models and female role models. So, it’s those people that genuinely believe and want to see the best for you or for a team to flourish.   

So for me, it's never been so much a gender thing. It's been more a confidence thing and backing yourself and seeing those jobs and going, "Hang on a second. I know that he or she would be applying for this, even though they don't meet XY or Z criteria. Why am I not applying for these roles?" And so, I suppose looking at things with a positive approach and backing myself that I can do this. And just having, I suppose, the courage.   

And I had a former director I only worked with her for six weeks. She came in one day, and I walked in like a good work person, giving her a memo. And she's like, "Do you know how to do your job?" And I'm like, "Yes, I do." And she's like, "Well, why are you bringing this to me?" And I'm like, "Don't you want to read my work?" She goes, "You're the assistant director. Do you realize how many handoffs I get? I trust you." and I'm thinking, ‘You don't really know me.’ She goes, "Do you know how to do your job?" I said "Yes, I do." She said, "Well, then go. Just keep going till someone tells you to stop." And that was about 14 years ago. And I haven't stopped since. I've just continued to back myself. And of course, seek guidance and support, but it was like another unclipping moment to realize that I do know what I'm doing. When you're with other executives or dealing with like people across the boardroom table, it's kind of like healthy kind of competition that yes, I can be here, I deserve to be at this table.  

Monica:   

It's a really, really good point and you touched on something there about, you know, people applying for jobs where they don't necessarily tick every single bit of experience on the job spec there. I think there are actually statistics out there that show that women are less likely to apply for those jobs where they don't tick every box, whereas men would just go for it.   

So I think that's a really important bit of advice just to back yourself. And in terms of empowering the next generation, which initiatives or programs do you think are the most successful in encouraging women to pursue careers in traditionally male-dominated fields? And how can organizations and communities as a whole support their professional growth and aspirations? I'll send this one back to you, Sue-Ann. 

Sue-Ann:   

I think we talk about representation and how important that is. And I think that absolutely matters. But I think for organizations to take a lead and actually open the eyes of the next generation as to what's possible. And I know organizations I've worked at in the past have done a lot of work going into schools and talking to them about the opportunities of careers in male-dominated industries. But, you know, I worked at a utility for a long time, and that was very male-dominated. It was like an 86% male workforce. And we just got to the stage of saying, "Let's just do an all-female apprentice intake," and there's all this outrage: "Oh, you can't do that." Oh, hang on. How many apprentice intakes have we had that have been all male over the last number of years? And, you know, nearly all of them.   

So it shouldn't be alarming to actually really target that because the problems that you have when you bring one or two females into a heavily dominated male environment is often they might not last because it's not conducive. And you actually do need a critical mass of support for each other, particularly at a young age when you're new in the workforce so that they feel like they belong and not just there for the sake of it.   

So I do think there's something in actually working with whether it's schools, unions, or grad programs, but really helping people to see what careers are possible. And even the basic things we do when we're advertising roles - trying to make sure that every shortlist is at least 50/50 male and female. The panel is made up of male and female representation so that we're actually getting really broad thinking rather than just sort of hiring like for like when someone leaves I think is really important. Having said all of that, it is always a challenge in areas where you're looking for, you know, engineering grads or finance grads. Typically there's less to choose from which actually if you have a daughter, if you want her to have her pick her own job they cannot get enough female grads out of engineering or finance out of a lot of areas, so really great career opportunities if people are prepared to sort of really look at that.  

Monica:  

Is there anything more that we can do? I suppose before we even get to that interview stage where we're shortlisting, is there anything more that we can do to attract more females to those types of jobs, do you think?   

Sue-Ann:  

I think there is. I've seen increasingly really very modern and great campaigns on LinkedIn where you see videos of people in the workforce talking about their jobs and what they do. And I think showcasing where you have had success in in recruiting and employing females in male industries, is having them talk about their experience, what they love about their jobs, what it gives them, you know, and whether it's flexibility or challenging work or whatever that is. But actually telling stories of the people that it's been successful for is a really great way to start, to attract more and I think. In a tight labour market like we are, the more we use social media and other tools to tap out and reach out to those people, the better.   

Monica:  

Yeah, definitely, Melissa. I can see you're agreeing with that one. Are there any ways that we should be sort of celebrating our successes more to attract a bigger pipeline? I suppose to the job application process?   

Melissa:   

I would say definitely. You know, for us, the work that the Court does has changed. So we are attracting a therapeutic workforce as well as a kind of registry workforce. And in terms of our statistics, we have 75% of our people, both our magistrates and our workforce staff, 75% of those are women. So it's our Chief Magistrate Justice Lisa Hanen, our Deputy Chief - we've got women in really strong leadership positions, positions from a judicial perspective and also from an executive perspective. And what we've done to try and encourage our staff to want to grow and stay is a developing leaders programme, emerging leaders programme that is complemented with coaching. And there you're working across with peers from right across the state because obviously we deliver court services across the state.   

So we're trying to encourage and develop our staff to grow with us, spread their wings. They can come back, you know, if they want to go out and practise law or whatever it is. But really realizing it's no longer a job for life, but how do we build and make the best for the people that do come with us for the time that they are with us so that they can contribute. It's kind of a values-based reason why you're joining the court with the work that you're doing and then wanting them to leave having had a good experience and feeling like they can contribute to the greater good.  

Monica:   

I love that. So building that culture for growth for the time that they're with you. Love that. That takes us actually on to the next topic that I wanted to look at, which was around fostering supported work environments and what role do company cultures and leadership practices play in promoting gender diversity and establishing inclusive workplaces where women can excel and progress in their careers. I don't know if any of you want to take the lead there. If you've got any examples that you'd be keen to share. Isabeau?  

Isabeau:  

I can happily share an example. Five years ago when we started our journey of a values-driven organization, Melissa just mentioned - talking about the values space. As part of that, we also shifted the whole diversity and inclusion space. And I said that's not about diversity at all. It's about inclusion and the measure that I use here was really good for us because we actually have more women in our organization than men. But what we realized was that most of our women are on the lower levels and there was a cutoff point. We've got up to 9 levels and then you go into the exec space, so the turn point was around Level 4 where the men then became the lead appointees in those roles.   

So instead of trying to say, well, we want to have a 50/50 kind of ratio at exact level, we started working on the pipeline of women getting to the top because if you don't have a pipeline of women getting to the top, you're not going to get them there and we're not going to recruit them. Then in a way if you recruit women without having gone through those leadership transitions during their journey, you also set them up for failure.   

The research that I've read also Monica, is around the fact that there's an issue and a problem, especially with CEOs, and we then bring in a woman CEO it's not set up necessarily for success and it's a failure. So that then brands that women are going as the people who can't quite get it right. So what we were really powerful or purposeful about was to say how are we going to help women to get this right. So I'm really excited to say now after five years, our balance point is now at Level 7. So you can see how it shifted from level 4 to level 7. And that is by doing programs like the Values Driven organization, really understanding what are the values, what are the needs for women. What's the needs for men? And we're starting that so there's an equal conversation that's starting to take place, so I haven't cracked it yet at the exact level.   

So it's still flowing through to that space, but at least if we continue that pipeline, that powerful conversation to take place, then that shifts the mindset of the people in our organization because we're doing all of the administrative stuff, we're having the right panels in place, advertising in the right way - that sits in the system. But that self-belief, building the belief of women. So in our organization we also have what we call woman's circles and they really talk about what is it that's stopping them from being successful, what's standing in their way. Melissa, when you started talking, you spoke about the mindset and how people approach things. So it's kind of like if we shift the mindsets of our women and I include my own mindset. Some days I go, oh, you know, should I be really at this table? And then I catch myself and you know, you say to yourself, “Oh, what's your bias about? What's going on for you there?” And I think woman, we're naturally reflective. So we can actually go into that space and help other women to make a difference. And senior leaders like ourselves need to reach out to women and continue to role model it.  

Monica:  

Yeah, I love that. So how we are setting other women up for success is also how we role model that I think. Is there anything you would add to that Sue-Ann?  

Sue-Ann:  

I think that was a really great picture to discuss. I actually think that we still, I don't know about the other areas, but certainly, I still see examples in the public sector where at the very highest level, men are tapped into roles, whereas women quite often are having to go through a process to get the same sorts of roles. And there's a lot of really clear cases of that in the last couple of years that I have seen. We need to be really equitable in that. How everyone goes for these roles at the highest level and so either everyone goes through a process, or we tap people based on what we know their skills are.   

But the sort of the hybrid that I see is very, very balanced towards males getting tapped and offered roles and women having to actually apply and go through quite rigorous processes to get to the same level. And I think that's something I would like to see across the board of public sector improved. I don't know if that's the same everywhere and I think it sort of speaks to that piece around, we can have all the policies and all the good intent and all the rest of it, but there is still an old guard, if you like, where I don't want to say the Boys Club, but there is still a little bit of a who you're connected to and how much easier it is in those circumstances.  

Monica:  

Yeah, I think there's an opportunity there to maybe review that whole recruitment process and how those roles are, have some transparency, I suppose, in how those roles are recruited for and how that plays out.  

Melissa:  

 
I said something to that around what I think has changed. Maybe this is just Victoria, but obviously with the pandemic, lockdown was enforced, which then forced the flexibility of being able to work from home, then to having a mobile workforce. I think that has created opportunities for women in particular who may have had obligations that were stopping them now that you can work more flexibly, that's really for me, changed I think the way people are approaching their roles and opportunities and opportunities that they see that once they thought, oh, I really I couldn't do that. But now they can because of being able to work from home or even being flexible with their working days, hours and weeks.   

I think obviously if you're the main parent, you know the parent looking after the child, etc, that was obviously an inhibitor. And at the courts, we've got a lot of that generation of women that were [main parents]: "We've had our children, we've come back and there's a young people leapfrogging us." Well now is your time. And so it's just wonderful that they see, yes, I've come back and there are opportunities across the court. They're backing themselves now and applying for those roles. And we've got at the court a really strong strategic plan again with staff like right across the state. How can people feel that they're part of an organisation and contributing.  

One of our strong pillars is MCV Empowers and there are a range of initiatives that sit underneath that. So it doesn't have to actually be, you know, an action plan or anything like that. They can see that there are activities that are happening that they can relate to or contribute to. It’s our collective activism approach for us achieving that one MCV concept. And, you know, delivering excellence so more and more, I realise the importance of a strong plan, strong strategic plan that everybody can feel that they are contributing to.  

Monica:  

Yeah, I love that. Definitely we can see the silver linings of the pandemic coming through in that regard as well. There is one I'm conscious of time and there is one more topic that I wanted to touch on, which was about measuring progress and accountability and how can businesses and leaders effectively gauge progress towards gender equity objectives? What mechanisms can we implement to remain accountable?   

Sue-Ann:  

I think the more data we have, the better the accuracy of our data is really important. And I think you know as a public sector, making sure that we've got really meaningful data. I know we've moved, even just really how you nominate your gender - it's not just male and female anymore. It’s about really making sure that people feel comfortable and we have opened that up to everybody. But yeah, I think the more data we have, the more we can really look at what we can do going forward.   

It’s like the example you gave about finding that point where women were sort of being outstepped by men in career progression and then being able to move that. That's a really great story. And I think that's something that we need to focus o n. You know obviously the big report that's come out on gender pay gap and this is all really interesting, but we've got to think about how do we use that and what does it mean and what's it telling us. And I think being able to drill down a bit further is really important so that we can make really measurable differences.  

Isabeau:  

I think if I can add to that Sue-Ann, is that the measures are important and measuring the data is important, but what we do about it is, is even better. I also think we should put out an invitation to all women to connect more often with each other. We often isolate, especially in our senior roles, we isolate each other.   

So I think one of our metrics should be how do we network better. It's not just about putting a woman in a role which Melissa spoke about the tokens. It's not just about that. It's about how do we network, how do we continue this collaboration? Now that I've met these powerful ladies, how do we continue this collaboration across Australia? How do we, how do we reach beyond because that's something that I think we can learn from the past that has  what I call “The Brotherhood” that is, it's powerful, it's strong. We do that and how do we take that to make a difference?  

Monica:  

 
Yes, I love that I'm a big believer in in community and collaboration and that there's a huge force there that we can leverage I think in doing that.   

I think there's some good, good takeaways in just half an hour today. Thank you very much, ladies. For me I’m definitely taking away from this, that we need to back ourselves and we need to also set other women up for success and it's value driven organisations. How are we doing that and how are we looking at supporting others through our broader network as well? So thank you.   

Thank you all very much for your time. Really enjoyed this chat.